Us as women. Us as young women. Us as students. Us against racism.

Dianna, I completely agree with you that racism and discrimination are wrong (obviously!).

I do want to mention, though, that discriminating against Germans is not necessarily *racist* unless the society in which the discrimination happens considers Germans to be a separate race. For example, firing someone because she is Irish and you therefore suspect that she is a heavy drinker is discrimination based on national origin, and wrong, but it only counts as racism if a large portion of the society count the Irish as their own race, as was the case in the US during parts of the 19th century.

Why do I bother to nitpick this? Well, you say that "Not all white people are against blacks or natives. We're not all racist. A number of us fight just as hard as minorities do to be recognized for who we are, to recognize others by who they are and not by skin colour or religion."

The problem with this statement is 1) the term "natives" has historically been used in a derogatory way to refer to indigenous peoples, but more importantly, 2) I feel as though you are downplaying the monumental uphill battle that most people who *are* considered a different race face as compared to white people.

In other words, yes, most people who don't fit "the norm" struggle to be appreciated for who they are, and these struggles can be brutal and even life or death matters, but the situation faced by a girl who presents as goth, for example, is different from the situation of a person who is virtually always going to be considered Arab, or Black, or Hispanic, etc.

I'm not trying to establish a hierarchy of oppressions, I'm just saying that different types of oppression have different meanings, and I tend to think that it's important to be specific about these things.

In short, I think it's awesome that you want to fight against racism and discrimination, just be sure that what you're calling "racism" is in fact based on race, and isn't some other form of oppression.

"...racism of ANY sort isn't. Getting. Us. There."

D -
This is a simple but awesome quote.

:) I likes.

I wanted to say:
It's important to note that *racism* is prejudice against a *race* of people.

No one can be *racist* against a German person. What they can be is prejudiced against people of German descent *and/or* people who are citizens of Germany. (Which would include people of many different racial backgrounds, but who share a national/cultural identity as Germans.)

I met the coolest photojournalist in Romania years back--she was from Germany and also appeared to be of German descent but this I don't know for sure.

Anyways, one day a young friend of mine, on hearing she was German, said and motioned "Hail Hitler!". I felt so bad for her and called my friend on his stupidity --she dealt w/it well but I could tell it really bothered her, obviously. Anyways sorry about the prejudice your friend has been experiencing. :(**

Racism and Nationalism are different things.

I'm sorry for that. But it's very much like racism in my mind. Different, but similar.

And when I get into a rant about racism/nationalism/whatever, I get angry. Once I start on those subjects, I can't think; and I have lost my head before.

So there were a few mis-meanings in there and a mistake or two, for which I'm very sorry.

Luckily nothing's happened since then to him or anything; I think they got the point. *Nod*

Dianna, you said: And when I get into a rant about racism/nationalism/whatever, I get angry. Once I start on those subjects, I can't think; and I have lost my head before.

One of the things you really need to make sure you're doing with your posts on AGA is giving yourself the time that you need to move past your anger and post about what it was that made you angry later. It's really important that what you post here is carefully thought out and not just a rant against school/the administration/your classmates/perceived racism/whatever. We want to see you thinking - not losing your head!

It's especially important to recognize the difference between things like nationalism and racism, or your school's anti-violence policy and your attitude towards using violence when posting your blog entries. The differences between nationalism and racism are not "whatever"; they are two very different concepts, both of which have had incredibly negative impacts on our world. It also probably pays to be extra sensitive when saying that someone is "racist" for making negative comments about Germans, when it was the rise of German "nationalism" that led to and escalated both World Wars I & II.

I think that it is okay to slip once in awhile. We all have those angry "I need to blw up" moments. At least here she is in a safe environment. And I don't think calling someone Hitler is nationalism. Nationalism is being for your own country. Also, many people call the Jewish people a race, along with Germans, because they tend to have certain hereitary traits specific to themselves. There was a time in American history (the industrial age for the most part) where you were discriminated against due to your race- whether you were German, Irish, or something else.

Hey Mollie; sure it's ok to slip once in awhile; it happens to everyone. Just most of the time there is a better place to do it than here (like a personal journal).

And you're absolutely right (and I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been); racism is absolutely not the same thing as nationalism, and calling someone Hitler is not nationalism. I also wouldn't consider it racism, more just someone being stupid.

There sure have been times in history when people in the US (and probably Canada, although I'm not as familiar with Canadian history as US history) were discriminated against because of their national origin; that's still different from what we consider racism today.

I think it's kind of similar to one of the discussions going on over at the boards right now about whether or not men can be "feminists", it's pretty difficult these days for a white person of any national origin/ethnic heritage to claim being discriminated against due to their race; which in North America is pretty much just considered to be "white/caucasian". I know that my ancestors came from enough different countries that it would be silly for me to be personally offended by someone making fun of my German, Welsh, Cornish, Swedish or Norwegian heritage - how would I handle all the Ole & Lena jolks the midwestern Swedes tell to make fun of the Norwegians when I'm kind of both!

I also think it's great that we get to have conversations like this about things like racism, nationalism, feminism, and all the other -isms; thanks for being part of it!

While we're talking definitions, discriminating against someone because of their national origin is not nationalism either. Nationalism is more of a response to being discriminated against, rather than the discrimination itself.
This is what we mean when we talk about radical black nationalism in the 60s for example, or German nationalism before WW2

I was focusing more on what I thought racism is/isn't and not as much on the definition of nationalism. Although I know Wikipedia is sometimes a dubious source, in this case, they have a really wonderful entry on nationalism here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

You've given me something to think about, because I haven't generally thought of nationalism as a response to racism, but more as an overarching devotion to one's country, and associated it much more with 20th century fascism and the negative connotations of nationalism with the rise of the likes of Mussolini and Hitler.

Also, I thought I could let this one go, but just can't : Also, many people call the Jewish people a race, along with Germans, because they tend to have certain hereitary traits specific to themselves.
I think of the designation of the "German Race" and the "Jewish Race" and associated "racial characteristics" as artificial creations of the Nazi administration used in an attempt justify the actions taken against the German people. I've met both Germans and Jews of all shapes, sizes, and other "characteristics" and definitely would not designate either group as a race, but rather Germans as a nationality (and in the US a cultural or ancestral heritage) and Jewish people as a group bound by a common heritage, religion and culture. A pretty simplistic definition, I know, but to me it is pretty loaded to call either Germans or Jews a "race".

Now to the extent that any "race" is an artificial designation of characteristics is a whole other discussion, because, as Dianna said, at the end of the day we're all part of the human race.

...but on this topic only, just to be sure it's clear, for blog entries -- as opposed to on the boards -- bloggers are NOT supposed to just blow off steam here in these blogs: bloggers are supposed to be more professional than that here, and we require that of them.

Brooke,

For me to ever speak about these topics, I cannot remain completely calm. To some extent, I will always lose my head a bit.

Here, I may have thought it was racism because I've had very limited experience with other, better terms for such a bias. Again, apologies.

At any rate-whatever it is, it is wrong. We don't always need to get pedantics right. But we do need to learn the difference between right and wrong.

We're all homo sapiens. Some of us have, over time, adapted in various ways to our surroundings. That supposedly divides us by 'race'. In the end, any discrimination because you are part of a certain group is still denial of the fact that we are all human. All humans were created equal, it is their upbringing and their culture that gives them privilege or a lack thereof.

In the end, I am sorry for making a few mistakes. A few here and there can't be helped, but I'll learn from it, which is about the only thing we can do.

Thank you for all your replies. Reading the comments was very interesting.
~Dianna

Hey there Dianna - I think you meant me, Becca, not Brooke, since Brooke didn't post any comments here.

Yes - it's sometimes difficult to remain calm when dealing with other people's bias, and when you're posting your blog entry, it's more than great to be passionate, but can negatively impact the message you're trying to get across when you lose your head. And, since this is a written forum, with limited and time-delayed 2-way communications, semantics are very important; since we're not here in real time to have a conversation and get to what you want to say, it's really important to make sure you're using the right words.

Thanks so much for your feedback though and I'm glad that you found the exchange in the comments helpful. I think we're all here to learn from each other and I really appreciate your willingness to be open!

*Headdesk*

Did I ever mention I am the clutziest person here? *Rolls eyes*

Sorry Brooke!! And Becca!

No problem, Dianna! Now, on to the next post!